Inside Sony’s CRE-C20 Hearing Aids: A Detailed Overview with Dr. Annie Duchen

Hello everyone, and welcome to This Week in Hearing. On the premium end of the OTC space are the devices offered through the collaboration between Sony and WSA HearingTracker, called their completely in canal or CIC model, CRE-C10, one of the best discreet, self fitting hearing aids as it offers good sound quality, speech enhancement and comfort. Now they have announced the new model CRE-C20. With me to explain the features of this upgrade is Annie Duchen, an audiologist who is also the senior manager for customer success. Annie, thanks for joining me today. Why don’t we start with you sharing a little about your background. Hi Andrew, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here. So, as you mentioned, I do work on the OTC team, specifically supporting the WSA and Sony partnership to offer these Sony OTC hearing aids. I’ve been with WSA for about three years now, always working on the concept of OTC and how to provide a premium and excellent OTC device to people. I’m by background, a clinical audiologist. I used to be a pediatric audiologist, work in the clinic with kids. And so my passion in general as an audiologist is to help find high quality and safe solutions and reduce the barriers to those, for all people who have hearing loss. And so that’s what led me from where I was to supporting this OTC product with WSA and Sony. Okay, great, thank you. I’m really interested to hear just what goes into the mix and providing a good experience for an OTC device. So I’m looking forward to the conversation. Just to set the table, why don’t you just describe the style of the device and what comes in the box when somebody orders one? Yeah. So what I’m really excited to talk to everyone about today is our new Sony OTC product. It’s the CRE-C20. I call it the C20 for short. So this is a discrete offering. It’s a completely in the canal or CIC style, and it’s rechargeable. This is a big deal when we talk about what we’re adding to our Sony OTC portfolio as a whole, giving someone that similar discrete option as the C10. But now it’s rechargeable. And we’ll talk a little bit more about the other features our C20 offers as well. And in the box, or what we call a kit, comes two hearing aids, one for each ear. The case, which is also a charging case, charging with a plug in and on the go, and as well as a USB cord. So you can charge your case. The devices come pre fit with small closed sleeves. And in the box also comes a variety pack of different size sleeves so the new user can figure out what size sleeves am I? Small is the most common, but another size might be right for someone else. And then lastly in the kit, in addition to our user guides and maintenance care, are some tools for cleaning and care, like a brush, a cleaning cloth, and some additional wax guard replacements. Okay. And you mentioning different sleeves in the context of an OTC, how the customer would choose the correct sleeve and know what is the correct sleeve would certainly be part of the onboarding process. Lead us through the onboarding. What happens when somebody receives their box? What happens next? Sure. So they receive their box and they open it up. And one of the first things they’ll see aside from the devices themselves is a little card that has a QR code on it. That QR code takes the person to what we call our quick setup guide. On this quick setup guide, there’s lots of important tips and tricks about how to set up your OTC hearing aids. And it also gives the person an opportunity to go to either the Google Play Store or the Apple Store to download the Sony Hearing Control app. The Sony Hearing Control app is what is the fundamental guide for this self fitting OTC process. And hopefully we’ll talk a little bit more about what that self fitting means. But functionally and high level, what somebody does is they will literally read each screen on the app. It will tell them exactly what to do in that moment in the process of setting up the hearing aids, which does include that self fitting process. So making sure the devices are set up for that individual, and then the opportunity to customize the devices after they get through that self fitting process. Okay, so the app leads everybody through the process, and what happens then if they’re confused or they have some difficulty or maybe to ask it a high level question is what kind of service and assistance do they get after purchase? And in what ways can customers get help? Yeah, it’s an important question. So the whole purpose of the OTC market and one of the purposes of our products is to make it easier and a more independent journey, a different journey than a prescription hearing aid. So we expect that it’s primarily independent, but we also know that for different people, that might mean different things. Everybody has different levels of comfort when it comes to technology itself. So we have built out an abundance of resources and different styles to help different learners get the help that they need for those people. Who are really the self starters, independent, wanting to do every part of this themselves, which we have many people who want to do it that way. We have tons of resources on online, so within the app itself, there’s lots of little help buttons. What does this section mean? What do I do next? Right, so you start with what’s in front of you. Then if you went to our Sony support site, you would see an abundance of things. There’s everything from a large FAQ, videos about tips and tricks, an opportunity to ask questions if you have them. And then we have what you would consider a more traditional support model. We have live support from a multi tier team of experts on our products. And anyone could call, text or message our team to get that contact live support. So it’s an important thing to call out, because with the value of the products themselves comes this unlimited ability to contact our support team, who will do everything from sitting with you and unboxing the hearing aid and helping you download the app all the way to getting through that self fitting process. Then when you get to the end of that, we have a lot of users who are new users. They’ve never worn a hearing aid before, so even once they are all set up how they’re supposed to be, they might say something like, my voice sounds funny, like most new hearing aid users do. And so we offer both counseling and suggestions about how to have success with the adjustments that can be made in the app so the person can make sure the sound quality and the volume are right for them. Okay. And you mentioned multi tiered, so I’m assuming you have a couple of different levels depending on the nature, right? Yeah. How do I get this thing connected? Is different than my voice. Sounds funny. How do I adjust the hearing aid? So you have different levels of assistance depending on the need? Yep, exactly. And we do that on purpose. Right. Because there’s a lot of things that are very simple in terms of just the tech itself. Like, how do I pair my hearing aids to my phone? And I say simple in the sense that you don’t have to have a background in hearing healthcare to help someone pair a device to a phone. Right. But when you get to the part of I need a little bit more counseling, how to understand that we want to make sure that our users have expert care in that situation so that they can have success with our devices. Okay. Okay. Now, when I look at what hearing tracker wrote and hear advisor giving the CRE-C10, the expert choice award that’s high praise already. So what have you done for an encore with the C20? What’s the difference? That’s a great question. Yeah, and thanks for calling that out. We’re so excited about what our portfolio as a whole offers, and the C10 was considered one of the best, and there’s lots of reasons for that. So when we thought about what the C10 offers our users, we wanted to build on that. We wanted to optimize what was already working really well with the C10. The biggest changes we made to the product is that it’s rechargeable. So we would hear from people frequently. I love the discreteness of the C10, but these size 10 batteries can be a little tricky sometimes. Right. So we wanted to make it easier and more accessible from a usage perspective. So it has a 28 hours battery life on a single charge, which is, you know, well more than a full day where no one’s even awake that long. But we did that on purpose so they could use it on the go. And it’s another reason why the charger, you can charge your hearing aids on the go, so you get 28 hours for that first charge plus, then the case itself will offer up to three full charging cycles of the hearing aids. In addition to that, there’s higher durability, so it has an IP 68 rating. We’re able to accomplish that because there’s no more battery door. Right. No more risk of moisture entering the hearing aid. And then we talked about accessibility, so we wanted to make it easier for people to literally handle these devices. So in addition to rechargeability, we added some indicators. So a red marking on the right hearing aid, a tactile dot on the left hearing aid, so people could hold them and figure out which is which. Right. A really practical, important thing. And then we also changed the sleeves. And we did that on purpose to increase. Increase comfort and also make it a little bit easier for people to manipulate those sleeves. So that’s what’s different about the outside. And I’d love to talk a little bit more about what’s a little bit different about the features and how the hearing aid actually works in noise as well. Yeah, absolutely. The speech in noise I wanted to get into because hear advisor thought the performance was pretty good already. So I’d like to hear what you’ve, what you’ve done in the speech and noise department, for sure. Yep. So the way the C20 hearing aids work is that there is single mic noise reduction, but in addition to that, both hearing aids work together to filter out speech and suppress noise around in the environment the listener is in, so they can focus on that main speech signal. So when I’m talking to you in a restaurant, our hearing aids are working hard to focus on your voice and your signal, as opposed to the restaurant noise around us. In addition to that, we worked hard to ensure that there’s really good detection and suppression of impulse noises. Right. These are new people. They have mild, new people using hearing aids. Typically, they have mild to moderate hearing loss. That’s who OTC hearing aids are for. And everything is louder. Right. And that’s a new experience for everyone. And so we wanted to try to make sure that listening experience could be smooth, especially in a complex listening environment. And so we also optimized things like our feedback manager, our wind noise suppression, our echo suppressions. So when someone is in that noisy environment, which is where we know people with mild to moderate hearing loss primarily struggle. Right. They usually do okay. And quiet, but have a harder time in noise, making sure they can have a successful interaction. Okay. The first thing you said about impulse noise really resonated, because when I first got fitted, like, six years ago, and I was beyond moderate, you know, at the time I did it, I remember sitting in the audiologist chair and everything was fine. You know, I’m getting the new experience. They set off the printer, and that first sound of the printer made me jump right out of my chair. It’s jarring, right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it’s a jarring experience. And I think the unique opportunity of OTC hearing aids is that we are trying to open it up for people to start their hearing healthcare journey sooner in a more accessible and a safe and high quality way. But these people are still new hearing aid users, just like anybody who chooses a prescription hearing aid or an OTC hearing aid and so we really try to keep in mind how can we wrap in the quality and ensure a good experience with this intro to hearing healthcare, this intro to amplification to make sure that we don’t have a negative adverse reaction to something that’s a big adjustment for our brain and takes time. Yeah, absolutely. And so one more thing. On speech in noise, you mentioned one microphone. So you got one microphone per device. But then, did I understand correctly that you’re doing binaural beam forming? Correct. Okay, that’s exactly right. And it’s similar to our C10. It’s just been optimized how it works. And it’s a little bit different if you expand and think about as our portfolio as a whole. Our E10, which is our earbud style, has two mics on each device, and that has more of an auto adaptive directionality, a manual directionality option, because it’s a bigger device where we can fit more of that stuff in there. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So then it’s a self fitting hearing aid. Are you actually taking a hearing test, or are people selecting from a number of presets? Or how is it actually working? How does the fitting process work? Yeah, I’m glad you asked. I think it’s important to call out that in this OTC market, there is a range of what OTC hearing aids provide. Right. So we are on the premium side of OTC hearing aids, and that’s because we’re FDA cleared, 510k certified. We offer self fitting. All of that is a fancy way to say we don’t just follow all the regulations. We created a device that would be more specific, specific to users with mild to moderate hearing loss than when you can just pop on and pick a preset. So the way the self fitting process works is that when you’re in that app setup, you will pair your hearing aids to your phone, and then you put your hearing aids in your ears, and the app will set what’s called a hearing profile check, which is our way of saying a little hearing test with the devices on, and you’ll actually do a little hearing evaluation for each ear with the devices on. This is how the algorithm, according to your responses, decides how am I going to set the initial baseline gain and frequency settings for this user? So the app makes that decision through the self fitting process to choose an option for you within that mild to moderate amplification range to start you off. And then once you get through that self fitting process, there are several places within the app where you can adjust both sound quality and also the level or volume of each hearing aid Okay. Okay. So it sounds like you’ve actually got a number of presets, but you’re doing an app guided procedure for choosing the best preset, and then you can customize from there. Do I understand that correctly? Essentially, except the user doesn’t pick the preset themselves. The preset is set in the background, and we call it a hearing profile. Actually, it’s a hearing profile, and this is something that our C20 has a little bit more added on than our C10. So in the background, there are six hearing profile choices that the app and algorithm is choosing from. And those hearing profiles are based off of thousands of mild to moderate hearing loss audiograms to find the best fit of the starting of amplification for the user. I think an important call out about the C20 is in addition to having six profiles and the C10 having four, it also has a little more low frequency gain. And we did that on purpose because we wanted to have the opportunity for people to have a little bit of a fuller, richer listening experience especially with that CIC style. Okay. Okay. And so then you alluded to the fact that once you’ve gone through the self fitting procedure, you have additional controls within the app. Like, what are the range of controls I could use in the app in different situations? Yeah, it’s a great question. So the one that I think people like the most in terms of the initial setup is that right after you do the initial setup, the first screen that someone will see is called the adjust loudness screen. And here they’ll see a right left slider. And this is where you get to individually adjust your ears. So maybe your ears hear a little bit differently and you want your left a little bit louder than your right. So that is something you can do right away, and you can revisit that screen at any time. Then, once you enter the main section of the app, you’ll enter the remote control section, and here you’ll see a volume slider, which adjusts both hearing aids at the same time, and a sound balance slider, which is really a bass and treble slider. And this is one adjustment and update that comes with the C20. With the update of the app, which is that in this remote control section, when somebody makes a change for the C20, the hearing aids remember. So if you decided, I like my volume just a little bit higher than the middle, and I want to boost up the treble, I’m going to turn that slider up on sound balance. When you turn your hearing aids on and off, they’re going to remember the next time. This is different than our C10 and our E10. Our C10 and E10 use this section more as a temporary adjustment section. And so that’s an adjustment that we made. We heard people say, this is the screen I see the most. I want my hearing aids to remember what I did here. And so we made that adjustment in our app. And then the one other, one other section, sorry to cut you off, that I think is really important to call out, is the fine tuning section. So this section is not fine tuning like we, as hearing care providers think of. Right. But what it does is it gives someone the opportunity to say, I’m specifically having trouble with my own voice. And then what the app is going to do is provide several pretty determined solutions that the user can listen to one at a time, and they can say, okay, I like the way that sounds. I want to keep that. There’s also options in there, like for feedback. I’m having a feedback issue. How can I help reduce that? So, different categories within there to get at some specific enhancements someone’s looking for, and all self guided. Okay, and then what about different situational programs, if you will? In other words, I I’m on a quiet street, I walk into a door. It’s a loud restaurant. You know, is there some automatic selecting of the situation, the sound scene, or are there manual controls to put it in speech in noise mode? How does that work? It’s a great question. Our products at this time don’t have a manual speech in noise option. That way, there’s a lot of adaptive listening to ensure a good experience there. But we don’t have preset programs like you would or programs you can choose from, like you can imagine from a prescription hearing aid. Okay. But you have automatic sound scene analysis going on. And from there, then you know, the hearing aids will adjust themselves. Exactly. Our goal in initially making these hearing aids was to make them as simple to use, meaning that we didn’t want people to have to mess with them a lot in different environments, especially as this first introduction to devices. And so that’s part of the logic there. But functionally, yes, that’s how our device, devices work, right? Put them in and forget them, and they’re going to account for the best, the best hearing possible in different situations. That’s the goal. That’s the goal. Okay. And understanding, it’s a CIC device. But I’m going to ask the question anyway. Is there streaming? No, we wish. No, there’s no streaming in the C20. It’s just too small to fit in there right now. I mean, that we know streaming is a priority for our users and is always top of mind for us. Our E10 product does stream for iOS devices, so our portfolio helps that a little bit. From the C20 perspective, though, it’s important to call out for the C20 and all of our products, they’re compatible with Android and iOS devices for setup, self fitting usage. But at this time, the C20 does not have streaming. So if streaming is a priority, people can go with a RIC device, and if it’s not so much of a priority, then they can go with the CIC The – our E10 is actually an earbud style, but if they are looking for that streaming, that’s what they can get from the Sony OTC earbud style. Okay. And then last question that I have is, when will the CRE-C20 actually be available? Yeah, thanks for asking. We’re really excited. So it will be available starting on August 27. It’s something that we’re greatly excited about both for the users who are out there searching for these devices, and also our team is proud to offer something that we know people are looking for. So we spend a lot of time thinking about what is most important to people when it comes to a C20 or, excuse me, to an OTC device. And one of the things we thought about was, they want something that’s easy to use, it’s comfortable, that has some affordability that helps them hear better. Obviously, that’s our main goal, to help them hear better. And so we’re really excited to bring this discrete new OTC option to the market and add it to our portfolio as something for the people who are out there looking for a hearing solution. Well, if it builds on the reputation of the CRE-C10, I think then it’s going to be a device that a number of people find, you know, that really helps them in different situations. It’ll actually be shipping on the 27th, then, so that if I ordered one, then I’ll get it. Yep, you can order it on the 27th. Okay, very good. And what would be the typical retail price? So the retail price is $999.99, and that’s for a pair. So all the things that we talked about that come in that kit, including two hearing aids and the case, the two most important things about using the hearing aids are included in that price, as well as the unlimited contact to our support, which is a part of the value that we find should be included with an OTC hearing aid. So really, that’s lifetime unlimited support. Yeah, that’s the point. We want to be able to support someone as long as they’re using our devices. Okay, excellent. I think, as I’ve seen in some OTC devices, where it’s order it and you’re on your own, there’s a lot of dissatisfaction that comes with that. So unlimited my hats off to you for the unlimited support over the life of the product. Yeah. It’s a brave thing that we’ve done, but we think it’s important. Right. We know that things come up with hearing aids. Aids. You don’t just put on hearing aids and forget about them. Right? Even if you have no trouble with setup or pairing, you’re super tech savvy, you’re good to go. Maybe for the first time, your sleeve gets plugged with wax. Then you’re like, I think my hearing aids broken. So we help with troubleshooting. Is it really broken? Is it a cleaning and maintenance issue? We try to empower people to learn these things. So when someone calls them for the first time, we teach them these things. So the next time, when it happens, they know what troubleshooting steps to start with, and then we’re there to help them. If that doesn’t solve their problems, which. I’m sure also will be helpful to limiting the return rate. Yeah, that’s the goal. I mean, really what we want, what Sony and WSA want, is to get these devices on the right ears for the right people. Right. We know that Sony OTC are specifically for people with perceived mild to moderate hearing loss. There’s a lot of people out there, as we know, with mild to moderate hearing loss, that haven’t done anything about their hearing loss. We’re starting to see that change with this OTC market, which is really exciting. But it’s important to us that our products are on someone’s ears who can benefit from them. Which brings up an interesting question, because, you know, if I use seven years as the typical time that people wait until they address their hearing loss, there are going to be people who are out of bounds for OTC. In other words, they’ve already, at least at some frequencies, gotten into severe territory. What happens if they try to fit the CRE-C20? That’s a really good question, and I’m so glad that you asked. So, our Sony OTC hearing aids, all of them in our portfolio, have a specific safety feature in them. So when someone takes the self fitting evaluation, if they have a hearing loss that is more significant than mild to moderate, they’ll be instructed to call customer service. All customer service will explain to them it’s very likely you have much greater than a mild to moderate hearing loss. And we’ll recommend that they see a hearing care professional. And that’s exactly what I mean by making sure they end up on the right ears. Right. OTC device is not going to help someone with a severe hearing loss like it would someone with a mild to moderate hearing loss. Certainly not the intention of the technology. And so we’d like to make sure that we can support that process. Well, I’m really glad to hear that, because I’ve seen a lot of studies that show that people don’t really know where they’re at. When they’re asked, what level do you think your hearing loss is? They often underreport it just because they don’t know. So I think that really good that people with more severe hearing loss, it’s actually called out to them that they should see a hearing care professional. Yeah. And that’s part of our goal. Right. In general. And I know you know this well, there’s just low awareness when it comes to hearing health. Why is hearing health important? How does hearing health contribute to brain health? What does a mild to moderate hearing loss even mean? Right. Like, what does that mean to someone who’s never spoken to an audiologist? And so the other thing that WSA and Sony are doing constantly is creating educational materials on our website and in other places to help people understand, like, what is hearing loss? How would I even know if I have hearing loss? Like hearing loss 101. What are some signs of what mild to moderate hearing loss looks like? Like turning up the tv too loud or struggling in noise? And so, of course, we want people to benefit from our products, but a big part of what we’re doing in general is just trying to build awareness around hearing health, getting people to come online and take our screener to give an idea of, of, would this product even be right for me? Could I benefit from this product? And so that’s all part of the journey that we’re trying to build here to bring people into this category, or at least into the conversation and question of, should I be doing something about my hearing loss? Well, that makes sense on a couple of different levels. One is, if people do the online screener and they find out they’re out of bounds, you might reduce the return rate by not having people who, for whom it’s not appropriate to actually get the device shipped to them. But you’re also building awareness, and so you’re getting people to start thinking about their hearing earlier, and that’s all to the good. Yeah, that’s exactly the point. I mean, people, more people now are searching about hearing loss than before this OTC market ever opened. So what it did from a benefit outside of just the products themselves, it sort of cracked open this conversation of hearing, right? Oh, maybe I should be thinking about my hearing, or how does hearing relate to my whole health as an aging adulthood? And how can I take care of myself in all the ways, right? I don’t just need glasses to see. Maybe I also need something to support my brain as I age over time. Yeah, absolutely. All the, all the popular press articles and discussions around hearing loss and the ill effects of untreated hearing loss that came out of the OTC. I mean, that’s a collateral benefit all by itself. And so now the conversation seems to be continuing and you see prominent people with hearing loss speaking out about it. And so hopefully this will start to change some mindsets and more people will enjoy the benefit of treating their hearing loss in the first place. I hope so. I mean, our goal is really to help people hear better sooner, right? That’s the idea. And so I do hope that’s where the conversation goes. And I’m really proud to be working in the partnership of Sony and WSA that is working really hard to bring a really good technology at an affordable price within this OTC premium range and giving people that first taste of what is the benefit of being able to hear better. How can I participate and be more active in the ways that are important to me? And so it’s really exciting to be a part of that and see that Our OTC products are actually attracting a new person, a younger person, sooner than that 7 what we sometimes hear, seven to ten year wait time and entering and doing something about it. I love that we want people to hear better sooner. I mean, that’s really just a great philosophy. Yeah, that’s why I do what I do. And our team works hard to do that. And we try to make sure that our products and everything that comes around them help support that underlying goal. Wonderful. Anything else you’d like to share about the CRE-C20 before we wrap it up? I think we hit on the big ones. Like I had mentioned before, I’m just so excited that there is this discrete option. We see that lots of people who are entering this journey younger or not younger still, we’re still working against the stigma of hearing aids. Right. We still have people who are not comfortable wearing a traditional RIC style or a larger style hearing aid. And so we intentionally choose this style to get at our mission of helping hear people hear better sooner. But being realistic about where people are and what they’re willing to use at this time. In hearing healthcare. Yeah. And stigma has many facets to it. And, you know, there are some people who want the hearing aids to be out there, invisible. And there are other people who are just really not ready to be seen with a hearing device. And if you can get them a hearing device. Sooner to hear better. Sooner. Thats all to the good. Yeah, that’s exactly what we’re after. Well, thank you. I really appreciate you spending some time with me. Yeah, thanks, Andrew. I really appreciate being here. You’re welcome. And thanks to everyone for watching this episode of This Week in Hearing.